Talking work and health podcast
ABOUT THIS EPISODE
Many of the world’s leading firms, including tech giants and global banks, are paying greater attention to neurodiversity and the benefits of recruiting and supporting neurodiverse employees. This week, Liam Sloan and Dr Mark Simpson are joined by Remploy’s Kathryn Wood to explore this increasingly high-profile topic, in an edition covering;
· Definitions of neurodiversity and associated conditions · How neurodiversity is increasingly valued by businesses · How neurodiversity fits into inclusive hiring practises · How businesses can support and accommodate neurodiverse employees #neurodiversity #leadership Talking Work and Health is brought to you by Health Management, a Maximus UK company. Hosted by Liam Sloan and Dr Mark Simpson. With Kathryn Wood. Produced by Nick Hilton for Podot.
Liam Sloane 0:05
Hello, and welcome to talking work in health the podcast series exploring contemporary issues in workplace health. With me, Liam Sloane and me Dr. Mark Simpson. Today we're discussing neurodiversity. So relatively new term first used in the late 1990s. According to one writer, neurodiversity is the diversity of human brains and minds the infinite variation in neuro cognitive functioning within our species. The idea that there is one normal or healthy type of brain or mind or one right style of neuro cognitive functioning is no more valid than the idea that there is one normal or right gender, race or color. This paradigm provides a way of understanding conditions such as autism, dyslexia, and ADHD. It treats conditions like these as positives rather than as obstacles, and recognizes the value that neurodiverse individuals can offer. Over time, the concept of neurodiversity has moved up the business agenda. attitudes are changing, and conditions like autism and dyslexia are now increasingly associated with focus and creativity rather than disability. In recent years, companies like Google, Amazon and Microsoft have set up neurodiversity at work initiatives, and so have the security services. Last year, the head of GC HQ announced he was directly targeting recruits with neural difference, but this is not yet widespread. neurodivergent people are estimated to make up more than 10% of the population. yet very few organizations currently have neurodiversity policies, and those that do find them difficult to implement. Only 16% of autistic adults are in full time employment, despite more than three quarters of unemployed autistic adults wanting to work. So what can businesses do to recognize and promote neurodiversity? Joining me once again, is my co host, Dr. Mark Simpson to discuss this interesting topic. I am, mark in your medical career, when did you first come across the term neurodiversity, and how has it affected the practice of occupational medicine?
Dr. Mark Simpson 2:15
Well, Liam, let me take you a little bit further back than that. I mean, I think just recording, I entered clinical practice in the mid 1980s. And at that time, the diagnosis of autism was rarely made. The problem was it was only made in the most severe of cases, really. And I do remember even as a GP having two brothers who are both autistic and remember, remembering how difficult it was to actually access services for them diagnostic services, and how difficult it was to try and integrate them into schooling, and so forth. So I think, for me, the term neurodiversity and I suspect is the same for many others, was more of a dimmer switch moment than a light bulb moment. Because increasingly, as in occupational health practice, one becomes aware of people with various challenges in the workplace and are now much better access. Particularly, it must be said through the private sector as well, as well as the NHS, to diagnostic services. So the terms such as dyslexia, dyspraxia, ADHD, have all become much more common. And I think that's partly because of greater access to diagnostic capability. The only other ride ride put on this as well is where is the bar set. So one of the reference points have been the diagnostic criteria set up by the American College of psychiatry, these are actually usually revised on a regular basis, they've claimed for DSM three DSM for DSM five. And there certainly has been a progression, if you like, of the recognition of the different shades of grey for all of these disorders, and a reduction in the diagnostic bar to allow a greater degree of inclusivity. So I would say my realisation around the neurodiversity as a term and its implications, probably came to me around 2010. So I'm probably should apologize for being a bit behind the curve on that. But I think what I'd like to do as well, during this problem, is talk about the practical problems that we see faced by both employees and employers in actually managing to exploit the skills and talents amongst this population.
Liam Sloane 4:39
And clinically, what type of conditions are we talking about when we use the term neurodiversity?
Dr. Mark Simpson 4:46
I think the ones I've really just outlined, and I think we're going to hear more from our other expert later on, but the sort of terms typically would be Autism Spectrum Disorder, dyslexia, dyspraxia, dyscalculia and ADHD, but there are obviously probably a number of rarer conditions that all fit within this spectrum.
Liam Sloane 5:09
And that's a really good segue to introduce our guest today. really delighted to have with us Cathy wood. Kath is a disability training and consultancy specialist with Remploy, and she works with employers to help them attract and support people with disabilities at work. Kathy, really nice to have you with. Thank you. And thank you for inviting me. So Kathy, maybe should we start by just exploring the work that you do? How do you support employers to make allowances for people with disabilities?
Kathryn Wood| Remploy 5:37
I guess there's two main ways hence, my job title has training and consultancy in it, part of the job is going out and actually looking at policy and process, looking at what the business wants to do around the topic of disability and mental health. And neuro diverse conditions come within within that. The second part is specific training, where managers or HR professionals within the organization need to have to gain the knowledge and the skills and particularly the confidence to then implement those policies and processes to enable not only the recruitment, but also the retention of the disabled talent within their within their business.
Liam Sloane 6:12
And your work span disability. Yes. When have you started to see neurodiversity climb up the agenda?
Kathryn Wood| Remploy 6:19
I guess the conditions individually have always come up in conversations with employers, and they've come up in training before but the term of neuro diversity really probably hasn't come to the forefront. And maybe three or four years ago was the first time that it was started to be discussed and specific requests are coming in from employers to look at that in more detail. And why do you think that is? I think, certainly there's been more conversation about it, the terminology has started to be used. I think certainly, there are certain few celebrities that have talked about their conditions, which have expanded people's awareness of it. But I think that what really is kicked on is when people are starting to recognize that it isn't about difficulties or challenges or problems. It's actually about skill, strengths and abilities. And that's really driven employers to start looking at this in a different way.
Liam Sloane 7:06
And so those employers, perhaps we could call them the sort of more enlightened employers or the more forward thinking employers, what sort of strengths are they tapping into when they've got a sort of well run neurodiversity strategy?
Kathryn Wood| Remploy 7:19
I think really what's worked effectively for employers, when they've found particular skills and strengths that match their specific requirements. So companies where technology is involved, or the security services have really picked out that there are certain characteristics about a new sort of the new or diverse condition, which is an advantage for their business. And these are things like attention to detail thinking in strategic ways or holistic ways, seeing patterns looking for links in information and data, high levels of concentration, Visual Thinking, is, I mean, there's a list, I could list you 30 or 40, different types of strengths that could be identified within people who have a new or diverse diagnosis. And it's about then that employer matching that skill to the need that they have. And the ones where this has been most effective, is where that that business has identified a specific skill which they can't get outside of that population.
Liam Sloane 8:14
And I guess, you know, in the introduction, we talked about the likes of Google and Amazon and government agencies and in the security space, is there a little bit of a risk of closing down around thinking as to the opportunities and roles that people with neurodivergent conditions could play? By sort of almost looking at that sort of holding them? Yeah, the sort of tech coding, etc. Surely, there's a much broader range of opportunities. Definitely. I mean,
Kathryn Wood| Remploy 8:41
there is there is a natural match between some of the skills and strengths that we would associate with neuro diverse conditions that fit quite comfortably within those type of companies. However, there are most companies out there that would benefit from a creative vision, from enthusiasm and energy that might be brought to it from people thinking outside of the box coming at it with a different approach. So I think we would be naive to think that only those certain industries and certain companies would could benefit actually, maybe we should be talking to companies about how all companies can benefit all types of roles.
Liam Sloane 9:13
And when you say benefit there, Kathy, I mean, from your perspective, companies who are embracing this, this isn't just a sort of nice thing to do. This makes good business sense as well.
Kathryn Wood| Remploy 9:23
Yeah, absolutely. Where that skill and strength is a quality that's required for certain specific duties in their business. It's easier to measure that impact. But actually, what we're looking at is, is benefiting from the diversity of thinking diversity of approach, and actually, being more representative of the community that you serve is an advantage for most businesses.
Dr. Mark Simpson 9:43
Can I just comment maybe on just some of my rather crude coalface observations, because obviously, we as an occupational health business, work very closely with diagnostic units. We work very closely with Remploy, but that's really with only certain parts. have our client base. The other problem that we actually see for lack of a better word is the square pegs in a round hole with somebody with a neuro diversity disorders such as autism has ended up in a job that they're just manifestly unsuited to the lack of clarity, time, ambiguity, rollout ambiguity, a lack of understanding of the just high levels of hyper arousal and anxieties that such people feel sometimes a lack of self care in attending work in really poor poorly clothes. And there's really little, very little understanding and an often dare I say, tolerance as well amongst those employers. So I guess part of our job altogether, is to try and hit these potential disasters off of the past, but before they because it's an inevitability.
Liam Sloane 10:53
I'm interested in Casper Spanner on this. I mean, how would you respond to sort of most characterization, though,
Kathryn Wood| Remploy 10:58
I think where that has happened, there's a level of responsibility for the person who has supported that person into work. So my before doing this role, I worked very much with individuals to find suitable employment. And for me, it's about finding that match at the start that creates that success in the role, not just an individual's point of view, but also to see the impact for the employer. So I think that if you analyze the job properly, and you look at people's skills and strengths, then actually you can reduce the potential impact that some of the characteristics they might display could have at work. Really, it isn't every job that's suitable, but then every suitable job isn't suitable for me either. So I think we have to recognize that people are different. And the most success is when you do find that round hole for the round peg. But it isn't anybody's fault, necessarily. But actually, what creates success is when you actually look at it in more detail in more depth. And that does take a bit of time and effort from the person themselves or from the employer, or from any employment services working with them. But it's worth its weight in gold when it
Dr. Mark Simpson 11:59
happens. I think it's when people have actually been forced by their own economic circumstances to take a job. And often to take a fairly generic job, if it's actually working as a temporary staff in a warehouse type environment, where the good practice that we'd all like to see really just doesn't happen. And then the trouble is, they're referred into the Occupational Health Service, when really everything has D compensated around them. And at that point, unless you've got a relatively enlightened employer, it's quite difficult to find a middle ground that you can both make progress on.
Kathryn Wood| Remploy 12:33
I think, to come back to that one, I think where we can address this as more generally, if we can help employers to see the benefits, and to maybe lay a lot of their fears around opening up their recruitment processes to attract more people new adverse conditions, than actually we're going to give people many, many more opportunities. So the falling into the short term warehouse job, which isn't suitable is less likely. So actually, it's a bit of a chicken and egg scenario. We can use case studies, we can use great examples, where people have really flourished in a role stuff like this podcast to actually show people that it isn't as complicated or as difficult as they think, to benefit from that talent that's out there. And then people won't be forced into a job, which doesn't suit them or fit them well.
Liam Sloane 13:14
So that might be a really good point to try to break this down a little bit. Because your work has extended across recruitment, across training across support. So should we sort of break it down into those sort of three areas? So first of all, in terms of recruitment, and you just sort of highlighted there, some of the difficult situations that employers and employees can find themselves in is for one to have good recruitment practices which respect and understand your diversity? What should good look like for an employer? What would you advise large employers to do in terms of putting in a good neuro diversity recruitment strategy?
Kathryn Wood| Remploy 13:54
I'll take it even one step further back in attraction, so actually, as an organization, are you attractive to people from all backgrounds, so not just new a diversity, but all all disabilities or health conditions and all the other protected characteristics? So as your organization's shown to be open? Does it have a good diversity, equality and inclusion statement? Is it disability confident? Are you mindful employer? Do you have case studies of different people working for your organization are readily available on your website or through media or social media? If you show yourself to be that kind of employer, then immediately people will be drawn to you and will actively look for when you're recruiting, and you will attract a broader set of applicants, which allows you to select better the person is a better match for your organization. So that's the first thing it said about how do you advertise and again, potentially people get stuck in a rut with how they advertise they look at it's only on my work, our company website, we use certain types of press, but actually Are you are you enabling your adverts to reach the right people? Are they going out to the right organizations are using the right types of media for people to actually see the adverts And then you've got the business of looking at what does the advert, say. And the language that's used in certain adverts and certain job descriptions is not necessarily going to attract somebody with a neuro diverse condition to apply for that job. Can you give an example of that. So for example, where we're referring to we're using language circus, such as abbreviations, acronyms, jargon and technical language, that game can exclude people who may be not familiar with that, but actually would have a really good talent or skill in the area that you're looking to recruit in certain things like we would classic one is to say, good team working in a job description, which potentially could be a difficult task for somebody to complete. But actually, how much of your job is actually going to be involved in teamwork, you might share an office with somebody, but are you actually going to be collaborating on a daily basis. So looking at using the phrases and words within your advertising, that is the essential tasks of the job, and taking out them the specific methodology and allowing people to choose their own methods for how they achieve the results that
Liam Sloane 15:56
you're looking for. So it's really about opening it up and maybe stepping up a little bit and starting from scratch about actually, what do you want your employees or potential employees to actually have as their skills and abilities? And in terms of, you know, to use your phrase getting round pegs in Roundhouse, should employers sort of really highlight and think about specific roles, where neurodiverse characteristics are more beneficial? Or should it be more around accommodating people who are neurodiverse in every role across the organ, I
Kathryn Wood| Remploy 16:29
don't see why it has to be an either or I would do both, you know, particularly where you can develop your knowledge around essential skills and strengths that neuro diverse conditions can bring, then that might lead you to advertise a particular role and targeted more at that group of people. However, I would say all job roles, you need to look at how you can make your advertising your and certainly the way that you describe your jobs and better to attract all people because then you get to choose from the proper pool of talent, not the restrictive one.
Liam Sloane 17:00
If we go on to sort of training within an organization, what level of awareness Do you think there is currently in the the general employee population around making accommodation adjustments for people with neurodiverse conditions? And what would again, good look like?
Kathryn Wood| Remploy 17:18
Generally, although we're saying that the terminology is used more frequently, and it's certainly people are more open about it and discussing their own diagnosis, think people have a surface level understanding of it, and potentially are led by problems and issues and difficulties and challenges rather than by strengths and skills. So I think it's about opening people's minds up to both sides of it, it would be naive to say that a manager or HR person doesn't need to know what potential difficulties and challenges anybody might present, because then the adjustments aren't put into place. But maybe we should start seeing a more positive outlook into maybe the potential that people have, I think as well, not being led by diagnosis, not just having a label on a condition, because of the overlapping nature of some of the conditions. And because of the difficulty getting diagnosed, as we've talked about earlier, that potentially people come to you and may present with a range of different challenges and skills and strengths that don't have a diagnosis. So actually, as an organization, don't be loved by just the disclosure of a particular condition be led by the individual. And actually, some of the good practices that you can put into place around supporting somebody with a neuro diverse condition is actually really good practice to somebody with lots of other different conditions. And actually really good practice as a manager or HR advisor anyway. So actually, what what we can do is build up that knowledge. And most importantly, I think, confidence for HR managers to have good conversations with employees about their needs. And really think about workplace adjustments, not just as a problem solver, but as an enabler. So allow somebody to really do the job that you've asked them to do. And that you know, they can do but some of our processes or systems or methods might be just limiting them as to how effective they can be.
Dr. Mark Simpson 18:55
I'm going to be just slightly provocative here only just to get Kathy's views because I think it's a really important part of it. I'm sure the sorts of scenarios a lot of our HR colleagues who are listening today will be familiar with our I'll give you a typical somebody who's been in the same job for 20 years is now in their mid 40s is actually underperforming and performance reviews, and then suddenly announces that they have dyslexia or another neurodiverse disorder, which can make people sort of skeptical, and I think that doesn't benefit the whole integrity of neurodiversity as well. Another example I've seen is when somebody was accused of theft with a within the organization, and again, they cited some neurodiverse disorder as a reason for doing it. So we think we do see some abuse of it. I see people as well who have self diagnosed on the basis of some rather spurious online tests that they've actually accessed. So it'd be just great to have cats comments on has seen come across such scenarios in her experience. And I think the key thing if the $164,000 question is how can you sort the wheat from the chaff?
Kathryn Wood| Remploy 20:11
Okay, so they will always find examples where people will use a protected characteristic of any description as a reason for something. And for the very, very minute population, what percentage of apps I see that with back pain, I see that with epilepsy, yes. So yeah, so so you cannot use those small number of cases to assume that every time somebody discloses a new adverse condition at a later date, it's because of that reason, when we look at disclosure of disability in general, there's no requirement for you to disclose. And quite often people only disclose when they feel like they have to. And sometimes that is when there's an issue. So it can come up during grievances, disciplinaries, capability discussions, or periods of sickness absence. So inevitably, sometimes the disclosure comes from a negative place, because somebody doesn't feel that they needed to tell everybody their personal business when they join a company. Now, what we can do, from our point of view of changing that, and making it more positive experience is actually looking at, again, about culture of the business, and how you talk about neuro diversity and disability in general across the business, to encourage people to disclose for the right reasons and not the wrong reasons. So being pushed into a corner to to disclose from that point of view. Again, when it is disclosed it when there's a problem or an issue, we start to think of it, we have to solve it. So we're putting all of our adjustments and our services and our referrals to occupational health have they're seen as a problem solver to get rid of whatever seems to be causing the disruption. However, if you can change the culture and get people to disclose in a more positive way, you can actually see workplace adjustments as enablers and more positive in getting people to really show their full potential. And that is the business difference.
Liam Sloane 21:51
And I think this is a really interesting discussion. And I'm interested in the whole theme around workplace adjustments, because having talked about sort of attraction, recruitment training, I suppose the other one is around support, and what sort of support should businesses be looking at putting in place to support employees who do have neurodiverse conditions?
Kathryn Wood| Remploy 22:14
I think when you say the phrase workplace adjustments, the sort of fear is that it's going to be expensive, and it's going to be complicated. And actually, a lot of the adjustments that you put into place, for the varying different challenges that people might present are actually very low unlikely to cost a huge amount of money. It's more about how you manage somebody and how you organize their work and less about buying expensive equipment. Now, don't get me wrong, there is assistive technology that can be very helpful for certain conditions such as dyslexia. But most of the adjustments are around kind of management of tasks planning and organizing, enabling memory and concentration and focus. And these are simple little things, little prompts, little sort of tools, you can put into place a strategy you can give people to be able for them to fit that into their normal working life, rather than massive changes of the way that they do things or massive system changes or equipment being sort of put into the to the building,
Liam Sloane 23:06
could you sort of bring that to life with a little vignette or case study of the sorts of things we're talking about there,
Kathryn Wood| Remploy 23:12
it might help us you to highlight how I've helped an employer to implement that. So we've worked with government agencies to put implement a toolkit and an associated service alongside it, which is really starting at the self help level. So actually giving internet employees the access to information about how they can put their own workplace adjustments in into their way of working with or without disclosing to their line manager, whether without discussing it and agreeing it but there are certain tools and techniques that they could they can put into place which don't require any changes from a managerial point of view. So that's, that's a really good level to have, because then people can often don't present with any issues, they could just self manage. And that is much more effective for everybody. But then looking at line manager information that that marries up with that so that they've been able to look at what changes they can make to the way that people work. And it can be simple things just allowing planning and organizing time, it could be following up verbal conversations with a written backup, it could just be giving information ahead of a meeting or training session, little things which once in place can make everything smooth and tick. The cogs kind of all run smoothly for that person within their job, allow them to get on with the stuff that you've recruited them to do. those particular skills and abilities that you want them to be able to showcase. A lot of this stuff is around the mundane processing information and retention of information behind the scenes that can just be quite easily changed. And again, that then enables the person to really flourish and the manager then has less problems to solve
Liam Sloane 24:43
because I think the challenge for managers is one which is really sort of evident within different workplaces where somebody with either a diagnosed or undiagnosed neurodiverse condition will be a different type of person I suppose to manage than than somebody who's not And I suppose how much of the support needs to be focused on managers and colleagues, rather than just around the individual?
Kathryn Wood| Remploy 25:07
I think it depends on the impact that those particular difficulties are having for that person on their job role, if you found the right job match, then less of those things will come up. So actually, really, by understanding some of the skills and strengths are finding the right opportunity for them, and also you recruiting in a way which allows them to show their skills and strengths, actually, the adjustments are going to be much more minimal. And it could be self management would be enough, I guess where more of those issues are coming up, or there's a change of job role or particular circumstance, which pushes somebody perhaps beyond their normal limits, then again, that's probably where the line management and maybe associated referrals might be needed. So there may well be need for a diagnosis, there may well be needed for occupational health intervention or medical treatments alongside of that, because a lot of new adverse conditions can be associated with anxiety and other mental health issues. So I think it's important to recognize that where possible, the individual should be in charge of the process, and if they feel they can self manage, but if they need their manager support, but again, it's a discussion and it's agreement, and it's a plan together,
Liam Sloane 26:06
do you see progress in this whole space? And where do you think employment practices are moving to in the future?
Kathryn Wood| Remploy 26:14
I think it's really good to have some case studies, some particular organizations that are doing this and having initiatives that are particularly recruiting, and maybe even targeting their recruitment. But I guess what I would I would really like to see is that it isn't just in certain genres and certain sectors, because that's very, that's very limiting for that for the individual. Because what if they don't really like technology, and computers and encoding and all of that kind of those that those who need the jobs that that's the initiatives are focusing on, then actually, maybe individuals are being pushed into the wrong hole and be like, and actually what we're really looking for is for them to have a choice, the same as anybody else about the type of career they have. And actually, really, if we can enable businesses and low managers to be able to have the confidence that it isn't as complicated maybe that opportunity will will come across a lot of different sectors.
Dr. Mark Simpson 27:00
I think we're probably near the end. But I've just got one slightly whimsical question with a serious intent to ask you. I think I said at the start of this podcast, we've seen a lowering of diagnostic thresholds as the American Psychiatric Association has actually gone through. And they've increasingly been accused of actually, if you like medicalizing just normal sort of their variations in character. So I guess my question is, for you, where do you see the end of the normal sort of vagaries eccentricities, peccadilloes of the human character ending, and neurodiversity beginning?
Kathryn Wood| Remploy 27:38
Well, actually, if you if you take the term neuro diversity in its widest sense, we're all neuro diverse, because we all have different ways of thinking and different ways of working. It's when does that become diagnoseable? But actually, from an employment point of view, and from moral and ethical point of view, duty of care, and also business case? Why would you care if somebody has a diagnosis, if you can do something to help enable that person to work better and be more productive, and it's if there's a definite reason for you to do that, I would encourage that we don't necessarily pin this on diagnoses, because we know them to not be as easy to get as we would like. And equally, certain people of a certain age may not have ever had a diagnosis, because it wasn't a condition that was talked about when they were in education. So I would say, from a management point of view, is why would you not work in a way that enables your workforce to be more productive?
Dr. Mark Simpson 28:28
And I think in a perfect world, that would be the perfect thing to do. The reality of it is that once you have a diagnosis, it does, for better or worse, it drives into a certain number of actions that you're beholden upon to take
Liam Sloane 28:43
isn't that a cultural change? Which is maybe overdue, Mark? Absolutely. I
Dr. Mark Simpson 28:47
think I have always argued to employers not to worry about whether or not in my view, somebody is covered by the disability provisions of the Equality Act, because a good employer would always do the same, irrespective of whether that was a question that was asked or not. And I think we're in the same territory,
Kathryn Wood| Remploy 29:05
and setting out features in the training that I do. And we always give the legal perspective, because it's absolutely the people need to know that. But I do say that you're in trouble if you see the the legal definition of disability, because it usually means somebody is challenging you and taking you to tribunal. So you should do the right thing for your employees and the right thing for your business. And if you have to do it because of the legal stuff, and that's the final reason to do it.
Dr. Mark Simpson 29:26
And it means if you're arguing about the legal definition, you've gone to employment tribunal. And that's really the last place any of us wants to end up? Absolutely.
Liam Sloane 29:34
Could you give three key takeaways for HR professionals in how to approach the whole issue of neurodiversity?
Kathryn Wood| Remploy 29:41
Yeah, I can give you more. But I think three that really key is not to make assumptions. Every individual have a different presentation of their condition, both in their pattern of skills and strengths, but also in the difficulties and challenges that they experienced. So sure everybody's an individual and the individual is the expert. So ask them what they And what adaptations and adjustments would be beneficial secularity really think that workplace adjustments is thought more as an enabler, and that enables and allows individuals to really flourish and be productive and do exactly what you've asked them to do and what they you've recruited them specifically to do, rather than as a problem solver. So it should be something that we're looking to do to enable our business to be more successful. And finally, to reflect on your attraction and recruitment strategy, does it really enable you to find the right people for your business? Whether they have a newer diverse condition or any other disability? Are you really enabling yourself to access that that pool of talent
Liam Sloane 30:37
guy, thanks so much for coming in and talking about this issue on talking work in health? It's been a real pleasure. Thank you. Thank you. Talking work in health is brought to you by health management and Maximus company. Please visit our site to find more about occupational health at health management.co.uk. Please remember to subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you download your podcasts for more interesting episodes.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai